posted by Kerry D-C

Comments:

Erin at 4:22 PM, Jun 18, 2007
I would say that my parents avoided doing some things that other parents do that have resulted in me being very happy: 1. They never criticized my weight. Even though I was a little over weight as a teenager my parents never commented on it or suggested anything. I have noticed that other kids have been devastated emotionally by comments like "You have kind of a big butt." Even if it's true, parents are best not to mention it. Somehow the same comment from other children is not as big of a blow as a parent saying the exact same thing. Particularly my father never giving anything but good comments about my body bolstered my self-esteem as a girl. At the very most my dad would comment that I was now "all muscle" and he kept his mouth closed when I was fat. 2. My parents never told me what to do with my life. Other parents pressure their kids into this or that career path, but my parents never suggested anything other than doing what I wanted to do. 3. My parents were very proud of my athleticism and never pushed me to compete harder. I was a really crappy athlete but my parents were super-proud of me, even if I lost every race. My friend who won races would get comments from her parents like, "Oh, you won, but that wasn't as fast as your last race." And even if it was empirically true, she knew that without them saying so. It made her feel really bad. Unconditional support is the way to go. 4. My parents never commented on my choice of boyfriend, unless it was working out really well. After breaking up with one guy I was surprised to learn my dad hadn't liked him. He'd shut up about it during our brief teenage relationship, and I was glad about that. My parents have also never pressured me to get married or have kids, a courtesy that you did not extend to me. I'm very grateful that my parents do not add stress along these lines. 5. Finally I guess it's worth mentioning that my parents have never had affairs (that I know of). I think that set a really good example for me.

Agnieszka at 10:05 PM, Jun 18, 2007
Some bad things my parents did: They expected me to take on adult responsibilites in order to lessen the housework burden on my mother, but they never specified what those responsiblities would be. I'd just get scolded for not having known that I ought to have washed the dishes. They had very particular plans for what I should do as a career and were not supportive of me developing my own interests and pursuing my own dreams. After a while they seemed to realize I wasn't going to do what they told me and gave up on it. Good things: One of the good things my dad did for me was setting me to do tasks that I though were impossible. For example he taught me to fry my own eggs by telling me to put oil in the pan, put an egg in the pan, and then flip it gently. I got no further instruction. He refused to make the egg for me or to supervise me closely. At the time that made me really angry (I was probably 12 or 13), but it's made me willing to figure things out for myself. My parents placed no limits at all on what I read. This was very good. Occasionally they wanted to make me read things other than science fiction, which annoyed me. They did force me to read Polish books every Saturday and to speak to them in Polish only. This was mostly good, as I'm still fluent. Now that I'm an adult I occasionaly wish they would relent a bit so I could tell them things in English, but that presumably won't be an issue for you. Make your kids speak Japanese at home though. It's a good idea. My parents both answered my questions about everything. I was a kid full of whys and they answered them truthfully, even if the answer might confuse me because it was too technical. The best thing they did was to teach me how a happy couple and close family can be not through lectures but through example. Even when we disagreed, I knew they loved me. In general my parents did not force any gender role specific crap on me and actively encouraged me to be self sufficient in all kinds of ways. A lot of this also came just from straigh up role model stuff, with my dad a nurse and my mom a doctor. As an example, my dad taught me to embroider. Also, as a little kid I had my aunt and my grandmother as auxilary parents. This was really good.

Ikyoto at 2:31 AM, Jun 19, 2007
My parents were always supportive of me regardless of what I wanted to do. They showed up to events which I participated in, but were never the type to get involved with talking with the teachers or instructors or interfering in any other way (which I greatly appreciated). I'm amazed that they never objected or seemed annoyed when I watched the same video several hundred times or insisted on singing Christmas songs year-round. A notable moment in my life was when my parents told me that they would always be proud of me, and that the only thing I could do to disappoint them would be to work in the sex industry, which made me laugh. They also kept quiet on the subject of whom I dated. This probably took a great amount of effort considering I know now that they didn't particularly like some of my choices on this matter. It certainly helped in the coolness department and probably kept me from willfully rebelling. We never really talked about sex or drugs which was fine with me (another funny moment was when one of those drug awareness TV spots came on that said "Talk to your kids about drugs," and my father turns to me and says "So, tell me all about them, you probably know more than me!" They also don't pressure me to marry or have children, but they did say in a nice way that they thought I would make a good parent if I decide to have kids. Growing up I didn't have chores or an allowance. I was responsible for keeping my own room clean, helping take care of the pets, and small tasks done working together with other family members like setting the table and folding laundry. I could earn money by doing housework it started with a quarter per job when I was pretty little. The amounts went up slightly as I got older. They also let me work for friends of the family or neighbors, and get my first official job at 14. I think this helped form a strong work ethic and frugalness which I still have. I did get the use of a family car for free when I got my license, so I could drive between the high school and the community college. When I was pretty young, I had to tell my parents exactly where I went, but as I got older this loosened up and they just had to have a rough idea (e.g. riding bikes with friends) and then I needed to be home before dark unless it was otherwise arranged. Once I was a teenager I never had a curfew but they needed to know where I was going and an estimated time I was getting home (2am or even later was fine as long as it was part of some rough plan). I liked this arrangement because it seemed sensible to me at the time so I didn't feel oppressed or anything. My parents were fun to hang out with because they were geeky, and very welcoming. Lots of my friends would come over to eat food, watch movies (my parents watched anime with us!), and play board games with them. My friends would also come over and cook with my mom. It was a fun place to spend time (especially for friends who had fussy parents) because it was okay to make a mess, and we could eat anything we wanted to make ourselves. My parents loved learning and it rubbed off. They would explain things in detail, use a lot of puns, and do projects with me. They never shied away from teaching me to use equipment that more cautious parents avoided. I started sewing at about 5 and learned to cut with a knife around the same time. By time I was in middle school I could use power tools. There was never really any gender role distinction made, and I had log trucks and dolls, and learned needlepoint and fishing. The things I had the most trouble with my parents was their difficultly dealing with emotions. Anger was not appropriately handled, so it was too explosive and unpredictable. Also communication was very weak on emotional topics, which caused a lot of unneccessary conflict from repressed emotions seeping out. They also managed to (I'm not sure by what words or actions) overdevelop my sense of guilt. I also learned some passive agressive behavior which was hard to unlearn.

Rick at 11:02 AM, Jun 19, 2007
1. Don't let Takako be an asian parent because in my experience asian parents are awful. 2. You shouldn't criticize your daughter's body or other things that your children can't improve. In fact as far as body image stuff goes, even seemingly harmless things may do harm. My dad once said that he was very proud of my sister and me for not being fat. He probably regretted this when she turned anorexic. 3. Don't hit/punish your kids when you are angry, only when you are calm. 4. Don't ever appear weak or powerless to your children. 5. Erin probably wrote her fifth comment maliciously, but it is actually true. Moreover never put the kids between you and your wife when you're having problems. 6. Growing up, the coolest of my friends' fathers was the one who always liked the same weird stuff (movies, music) as us. 7. Finally since others have mentioned dating, my parents were so thrilled when they found out that I wasn't gay that they've been wonderful to every girl I've brought home since. I guess that's a good thing.

Kerry at 1:02 PM, Jun 19, 2007
I appreciate the excellent comments so far. A common thread is that pressuring your kids to be a certain way/do a certain thing is bad. I'd like to hear more on this, as it is an issue of great concern to me. I want to require some things of my kids, encourage others, discourage a few, and forbid even less. However, there are some items in each column. Where does encouragement turn into pressure? Let me give a few concrete examples. 1. When Ken exhibits athletic prowess he is praised, because I am genuinely excited and happy. Ditto for when he recites poetry or uses difficult vocabulary. Pressure or no? 2. I intend to retrict my kids' access to media rather severely, with decreasing restaints with age, and I will probably disparage bad media at will. Soul-crushing or reasonable? Also, thanks for the many comments on reigning in criticism. I am a rather critical person by nature, and I can see that I must restrain myself with regards to the kids (and perhaps the rest of the world, but first things first).

Tim at 3:15 PM, Jun 19, 2007
I think the most important things I've learned and am grateful to my parents for, is having encouraged my interests. I agree that the comments have been stellar, and I believe that we're all very aware of a lot of the issues with child-rearing and would probably all make good parents whether we or not we choose to do so. Good Things 1. Self-sufficiency is a hugely important thing. Once the kids want to leave the nest, they should actually be capable of doing so. My parents taught us how to do things around the house, cooking, maintenance, basic finances, et al. The number of other kids who have not the first clue in this realm baffles me. I once met someone who did not know how to use a screwdriver. It still shocks me to think about that. 2. My parents have almost always been very real and honest. I remember being very acutely aware when my folks said something they didn't believe fully. And in that realm, when something was their opinion or belief, they'd say so specifically and leave it to me to decide what was right for me. However, this also shapes something I am less than perfectly pleased with: we didn't grow up with much tradition, and I am sad about that. It feels to me sometimes that I am culturally lacking because of the indefinite attitude towards things like that. 3. Encourage their interests. This is the biggest thing I am grateful for, and has definitely shaped my life. I have always been able to pick a topic that I'm interested in, and had that fully supported. When I was interested in anything, there was always full support to pursue that to whatever end I found appropriate (except football, but I don't begrudge that). I read books and books on dinosaurs, then my dad taught me to program computers, then later I got into skating. With only the one exception, they've fully supported everything I have ever wanted to do. 4. Give choices and trust. As you know, I was homeschooled. As long as I've been capable of making conscious rational decisions, it has also been my choice to stay homeschooled. The option has always been there, and has always been in my control. And this applied to all decisions that specifically affected me, I was always involved in deciding my own life. They have always treated me like a person, not like a kid. 5. For the most part, "the sex talk" was done by having explicit technical books freely available. This saved both my parents and I from wrangling with the details (though they remained open to any questions), and made the talk more a discussion about their beliefs on the emotional portion. 6. Enforce self-restraint. My parents didn't believe in spanking, I think I was spanked once, and I don't remember why. It didn't make any real impact on me because the pain faded and then it was done. Timeouts in a private space that wasn't my own room (usually my parent's room) were probably the most effective punishment. Bad Things 1. My parents had a tendency to yelp at things that scared them. For example, my dad does not like heights. So whenever I did something that would freak him out, he would yelp. Now, I am mildly bothered by heights, where I wasn't for a long time. I wish they had tried to keep things that bothered them under control, and let me know while calm and rational, as opposed to instilling a miscellaneous fear. 2. Don't let kids give up on important baseline knowledges. When I first started learning algebra and other math subjects past arithmetic, I got hung up on factoring and gave up on it. I still can't factor. Sure this is not crucial to a lot of career paths, but it's really important for just about all school, and even if they don't go that way, not having to worry about doing math would have made a lot of my non-science/engineer friends' lives easier. Responses Pursuant to encouraging interests, I am in total agreement that you shouldn't push a career. As Rick mentioned, language is very tricky here. My cousin went off to Law school because "it's what [his parents] wanted him to do." His father and step-mother (my aunt) are both pediatricians and (I'd bet) never intended to push that on him, but it's what he understood. Now, he's a dropout and a meathead, and has no real direction. My childhood was quite media-free. We had basic antenna TV (60-100 miles from the source -- not great reception), but were not particularly restricted from watching it. Music or reading was always a much better option. I think encouragement should probably be done on a general basis, whereas pressure starts when you start being supportive in a specific manner on your own momentum. I don't think it's wholly unavoidable though, something similar is going on with my sister and college. She has expressed some vague interests, and my folks are doing a lot of digging on her behalf, but the pace at which this is happening is not synchronized, and so my sister is feeling a lot of pressure and stress because information is flowing at her too fast to capably manage. Not too long ago, I read a really interesting article in the Times about developmental research on praise. It seems that some restriction of praise is much better for the kids, as the ones who got praise for everything did less well in the future because of the apparent belief that anything they do is good, and tended to become depressed when they received objective reviews. While the ones who had less praise would work more diligently for a more clear objective, resulting in stronger grades and less depression. I feel like I could keep writing for hours and still think of more things.

Sam at 12:25 AM, Jun 20, 2007
I honestly think that the overlap of "Good Parenting" and "Kids will like you when grown" is a LOT larger than you think. I think the basic premise of good parenting is to equip your child to be a functioning member of society and for them to be able to achieve their life goals. There are a bunch of steps on the way (being able to identify life goals, figuring out in what way they want to function in society, etc.) but at the end, chances are good that being a good parent will also result in a child who will like you when they are grown. Best things about my upbringing: 1. I knew my mom would always love me, even if she disapproved of my life choices or actions. 2. My mom was a strong proponent of me making my own decisions, making choices that were right for me - not her definition of right, or some random societal definition, but what I thought would be best for me. (She really liked saying "You got to paddle your own canoe!") 3. She was firm on this - the end result of any effort was important, but more important was knowing you'd done your best. It'd be great if I got straight As in school or whatever, but what she wanted to know when I came home with a report card was: Did you do your best? If my best in a particular subject was a B or a C, that was fine. She was proud of the effort I'd put in. 4. My mom helped me understand the consequences of my actions and choices. Along with her whole ethos of making the decision that was right for me, she wanted me to think through the implications of my decisions. It was always very clear that I could do whatever I wanted with my life, as long as I was prepared to accept both the advantages and disadvantages of my choices. 5. Just because some things come easy doesn't mean that everything else will. Don't take things for granted. As for the bad - I honestly think that most of the negatives about my upbringing were simple personality conflicts. My mom and I are very similar in a number of areas (stubborn, strong opinions) and very dissimilar in some others (she's a neat freak, I'm anything but). Which led to some bad arguments, but we've made peace with regards to our differences, and we have a good relationship. In response to your question about encouragement vs. pressure Praise for areas in which you're particularly interested I think is just human nature, and not harmful. What worked for my mom (and thus, me) was expressing pride and praising my accomplishment, but also setting me new challenges. I didn't get complacent, but also didn't feel she was belittling my achievements. It was along the lines of "That's awesome that you did that, well done! You know what would also be cool? This other thing (or this more difficult version of the same thing.)" However, if Ken were to turn out to be very adept at an area you dislike intensely (I'd give an example, but I don't know your dislikes and prejudices well enough - football jock? Gardening? I dunno...) you should be proud of his achievements in that area as well. Criticizing things that you think are bad - again, human nature. However, there's a big difference in saying "I think reality TV is stupid" and saying "I think you are stupid for watching or wanting to watch reality TV". While it may be true that you think so, that's the kind of criticism that will demoralize and crush souls. And honestly, kids look up to their parents and their parents' opinions. Even in the crazy teen years, I knew what my mom's opinions were, and they held weight with me. It's one of those situations where you want Ken (or Aki) to know how you feel about something, but you don't want them to feel like you're judging them and finding them wanting. I'm not sure I'm being clear. Let me know if there are particularly confusing parts to this comment. ps. Congratulations on being a parent! And also on caring enough about your kids and your future relationship with them to even ask these questions!

Agnieszka at 2:07 PM, Jun 20, 2007
I read this article a while ago about encouraging kids and what effects different kinds of praise and encouragement have. It's in a newspaper, so the science is probably mis-represented, still it has some interesting stuff to consider. http://nymag.com/news/features/27840/

Kerry at 1:34 AM, Jun 22, 2007
Erin - Having kids is so great that I pressure everyone about it. It is like unto having seen an awesome new anime that none of your friends has seen yet. You want to spread the word. Tim - If you have more to write, I would love to read it. Your comments are much appreciated, especially as you are home-schooled. Agnieszka - Very interesting article. This will inform my interactions with the brood for sure.

Erin at 12:43 AM, Jul 1, 2007
[quote] 2. I intend to retrict my kids' access to media rather severely, with decreasing restaints with age, and I will probably disparage bad media at will. Soul-crushing or reasonable?[/quote] I've been giving this a lot of thought. Hal is right when he says that if you make something forbidden to your kids they'll just want it more. My parents did not strictly censor what I watched, and I think as a kid I was pretty self-censoring. Like I wouldn't watch Cops, I knew it wasn't for me, but that's not really what you're talking about. I'm kind of echoing Sam's opinion here... Instead of forbidding things, I think you'll have more success introducing to your kids media that you find great, and they will mirror your enthusiasm. If they want to watch something you disdain, like American Idol, explain to them why you think it's lame, and do not emphasize what kind of person they'll turn into by watching it. If you're going to keep your kids out of the mainstream the best way to do so is by providing a constant source of alternative media. I can picture many evenings ending in watching Viking movies instead of "So You Think You Can Dance" with an explanation that vikings are much more awesome than anything on Fox. Until they're a certain age, I think your kids will respect your tastes and imitate your aesthetic. Instead of saying that they can't have a Playstation or something, say that you hate Playstation and would rather they get something else instead. Instead of censoring parts of the web, tell your kids what you find fault with, and they'll probably agree with you. Instead of, "You can't watch this" say "I hate this and here's why." I think the latter is more effective. Instead of forbidden, it's just bad, which is the truth, and that's more effective, isn't it?

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posted by ET

Comments:

Halifax at 12:51 PM, Nov 12, 2006
I assume thecomicman would approve of this criticism of LOTR, at least: "The great epics dignified death, but they did not ignore it, and it is one of the reasons why they are superior to the artificial romances of which Lord of the Rings is merely one of the most recent." I think that Moorcock's main problem here is that he hates bourgeois values, which are of course celebrated by Tolkien; bourgeoisophobia (the word is Flaubert's, who said the middle class made him simultaneously want to weep and vomit) has always been a confounding of the aesthetic and the moral. Moorcock's whole tone is that of the upperclass; tolerant and perhaps even envious of the lower classes and soccer hooligans but suspicious of these vulgar middle-class upstarts. I mean, you're really betraying your class consciousness when you let slip that you think Gore Vidal is provincial. He's a gay Kennedy, for God's sake, he couldn't be less provincial if he were literally Paris, France. But he is provincial because he's an American with pretensions of class. Faulkner at least grants one nostalgia de la boue. Obviously, I love Watership Down and Pooh; although I also love many of the authors Moorcock praises, such as Baum and Alexander; heck, I even like Moorcock. I don't want to sound like a philistine, but I certainly do like LOTR more than Ulysses, an annoying and unnecessary book with some excellent parts. If we were talking Nabokov or Borges (or any number of other "literary" authors), Tolkien would lose, of course; the jury is out on his proposals of Conrad, Mann, and Faulkner; but Watership Down is still better than them all. And although the second half of the Two Towers stopped me dead in fifth grade, now that I've read LOTR twice since then I must say that the slow part is not that long. The plains of Gorgoroth, which loom so large in memory, are like one chapter! And frankly, a trip across Mordor should not be painless.

Kerry at 8:39 AM, Nov 14, 2006
Super props to tcm and ET for showing that the death of this site was prematurely announced. I'll think of something thoughful to write in my second life when I have time again.

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http://wired.com/wired/archive/14.11/sixwords.html

okay, got it? now, write your own!

it'll be great!

posted by thecomicman

Comments:

thecomicman at 1:48 AM, Oct 29, 2006
The internets snickered whilst I floundered.

thecomicman at 1:49 AM, Oct 29, 2006
Tokyo sucked. Welcome to the future!

thecomicman at 1:50 AM, Oct 29, 2006
Mom thinks I'm funny. Get it?

thecomicman at 6:48 PM, Oct 29, 2006
Must Sundays bore me to death?

neener at 4:25 AM, Oct 30, 2006
Your mom thinks I'm funny too!

Erin at 3:58 PM, Oct 30, 2006
Looks like you also read the Wired link from gmail ads? (That's not my story.)

thecomicman at 7:37 PM, Oct 30, 2006
Dude, I got it from Sam.

ET at 11:22 PM, Oct 30, 2006
It took off its human face. "Genie, I wish for Superman's powers." "Who's box is that?" "Arrest Pandora!" "Feel that breeze?" "WARNING: HULL BREACHED." The EMP trapped everyone in meatspace.

Dan at 9:46 PM, Oct 31, 2006
White hat haberdashery destroyed. Heroes unrecognizable. Death is coming, so remember: Posture! Muzzle flash showed me his face. Doctor enters. "Pain's normal," leaves. Shithead. Sword broken. Shield Split. "Who's next?" World Ends Midnight? Story at 11:00. Red Shirt survival! Exchange uniforms here.

ET at 3:22 AM, Nov 1, 2006
Unfortunately, Fly ended over the volcano. Night. Shuffling steps. The dead reek. Donation Receipt: Pink shirts. Red socks.

Halifax at 11:12 PM, Nov 1, 2006
These are better than the "real" samples. My favorites are "sword broken" and "donation receipt," but "doctor enters" is probably the most heartfelt. Anyway, I have learned that writing these is harder than it looks.

Dan at 12:51 AM, Nov 2, 2006
They are hard. I've writen about 25, but all but these suck rocks. I liked "it took off its human face" and "donation reciet" too. Its nice, though, to actually finish a story for a change.

ET at 2:58 AM, Nov 2, 2006
Even better, you could say you've completed a short story collection! I also liked "Doctor enters." and "Sword broken." I'd tried to write the same story as "Sword broken.", but none of my drafts were as good.

Halifax at 10:17 AM, Nov 3, 2006
I removed her dress, revealing bones. Seventeen babies later, we still remembered. While sobbing I couldn’t reassemble her. The blood wouldn't go back inside.

Dan at 3:32 PM, Nov 3, 2006
Christ, Hal! I like your three "creepy" ones. The first one is particularly shocking.

Agnieszka at 2:59 AM, Nov 5, 2006
Hal, regarding your story "the blood wouldn't go back inside"... you may wish to view the first 30 seconds of this clip. http://youtube.com/watch?v=BcI6QfaSDuQ (it is a complete huge spoiler for xenosaga III but I don't imainge you'll ever play it anyway)

Mister Japan at 6:06 AM, Nov 12, 2006
Raped by tentacles. Still a virgin? She tasted like paste. Sock glue? Schoolgirl winks, salaryman approaches. Messy ending. Robots, ninjas, schoolgirls. Must be Japan. Everyone there finally died of boredom.

thecomicman at 6:27 PM, Nov 13, 2006
huh, that Mister Japan guy kinda thinks like me.

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Here are my thoughts on livejournal vs. the octoblog:

Read more...

posted by Erin or 'Rin or Erinesque

Comments:

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Of course, the Octoblog has its advantages, too, in that it encourages lengthy, introspective responses in the course of a discussion that can last months. The two most active Octoblog threads are over three years old. There is, I assume, some way to keep threads active on Live Journal for months or years (for all I know, it's the default); but there is probably no way to keep a discussion active that long. The constant, some might say desperate, flow of novelty through Live Journal washes away the possibility of a measured, thoughtful give-and-take. Knee-jerk reactions, OMFGLOLOLOL, however, Live Journal encourages.

Have we, then, surrendered (yet again, I might add) meaningful content for a shiny set of bells and whistles? Or does Live Journal have potential I have not yet acknowledged?

posted by halifax

Comments:

ET at 1:23 PM, Sep 24, 2006
(Cross-posted from LiveJournal) You are unfairly comparing OctoBlog, where people have posted topics of interest to all octopuses - often with the intent to prompt discussion, with LiveJournal, where people post the same things they've always posted on their personal blogs that serve whatever purpose the bloggers wish. The real knee-jerk reaction here is from your hatred of new things. While it is true that LJ has bells and whistles (it's only because it's new to you that you find it novel and shiny - LJ does predate the OctoBlog, after all), the content is the same as what octopuses have always posted on their personal blogs. You erroneously blame LJ rather than the bloggers who created the meaningless content that bothers you so much. P.S. I will point out that tcm's consistent name-calling across all forums as further proof that LJ is not Satan incarnate.

Halifax at 2:24 PM, Sep 24, 2006
It is irrefutable that LJ has sapped content from the octoblog; a scan of friends' LJ posts will find a host of topics that could well have been octoblog topics, but were not. Despite the booze-fueled rantings of a certain roach bird, who by Sunday at 1:30 PM has been hitting the bottle for a good 16-22 hours while weeping over the hollow victory of three years ago, when she actually managed to acquire an AA 2-week chip, I am not opposed to LJ, except insofar as 1. it can be used as a verb, which is just grody, and 2. insofar as the medium is the message, the message of LJ is hardly: "Let's have a long, thoughtful discussion over something meaningful." Look at some of your favorite octothreads of yore and consider what percentage of the comments could have been made on LJ. Is even the short week of good discussion engendered at http://blog.oftheoctopuses.com/000850.php (one of my old faves) possible on LJ? Another advantage of LJ is the spell check, which makes it easier to use words like irrefutable.

ET at 3:22 PM, Sep 24, 2006
Hal sez: "It is irrefutable that LJ has sapped content from the octoblog; a scan of friends' LJ posts will find a host of topics that could well have been octoblog topics, but were not." Bullshit. You may very well be distracted by the little Japanese girl you kidnapped and amputated a limb or two from, but there are plenty of posts from before most people had LJ accounts that could easily have existed on OctoBlog. Traffic slowed down on OctoBlog well before things ramped up on LJ. Also, many of the people with LJ accounts were never active on OctoBlog to begin with. If you can can possibly take a break from crazy-glueing that kitten into your kidnap victim's mouth, you can do some work and provide scientific proof. Go back to June 2002 (when the OctoBlog began), and find everyone's blogs from back then, and count how many posts per month could've been OctoBlog posts. Then do the same for peoples' LJ posts. The month-by-month is important because there should be a chart of some kind that shows how this all correlates. If you are right, there should be a decline in the number of OctoBlog posts over the same time period that the number of OctoBlog-possible posts on LJ increases. You should also be able to show how the personal blogs of yore affected the OctoBlog differently from the LJ accounts of today. You have the means to provide scientific evidence for your wild-eyed claims - since you are the alarmist, the burden of proof is upon you - otherwise, you are no better than Al Gore.

Halifax at 6:23 PM, Sep 24, 2006
I will always be better than Al Gore, because I did not marry Tipper Gore.

Maggie at 6:48 PM, Sep 24, 2006
Hal, it is totally ok that you use LJ. It does not make you a "hipster" or some sort of a pioneer in adopting new Interweb technologies. It is not even a big change, just a different tool than the Octoblog. You don't have to fear it. It really is ok. Getting to the subject of your post, though: you're completely not ackowledging the fact that the Octoblog was awesome when we all got along and were a happy group of friends. I will not name names 'cause you'd call it gauche, but seriously, we hate each others' guts and don't want to have anything in common, e.g. an exchange of opinions on a given topic on the Octoblog. LiveJoural's biggest and most important feature is that it allows restriction of access - if I hate you, but I'm passive-agressing, I still don't have to read your posts (even if you're one of my LJ "friends"). If I'm openly hating you, I'll just take you off my list. The break from the Octoblog has nothing to do with LJ taking over. It is merely a symptom of our group of friends splitting into different groups. Get over it. Use LJ. Cross-posted on the LJ.

Halifax at 7:57 PM, Sep 24, 2006
Well, that's two benighted souls who have managed to convince themselves that anything less than a rabid orgy or hoorays for every new fad to come down the pike must be a symptom of mental problems. Although at least Mags wasn't hammered when she commented. LJ has its advantages, it's true (less spam, e.g.), although I'm not sure why Mags brought up Asian J. But is it worth surrendering what we surrender? I mean, can one have a meaningful discussion on LJ? Can one?

thecomicman at 8:42 PM, Sep 24, 2006
dude, you're retarded. LJs are personal blogs, like the ones some of us still have (ET and me spring immediately to mind) and others used to have. the OctoBlog was always supplementary to all of us (except for you, because you didn't have a personal blog). i rarely posted to the OctoBlog because i'd rather post it on my personal blog. now you have an LJ (which is a personal blog) and can post over there instead of (or as well as) here. notice that cross-posting you do here and at your LJ? that's same thing i do with my regular blog and my LJ. for a long time, this was your only way to put something on the internet. now you have a different way and are feeling strange abandonment issues. knock that off. the OctoBlog is not sentient. and you know damn fucking well what Maggie is talking about, so don't play the annoying fool.

ET at 9:23 PM, Sep 24, 2006
LiveJournal started in March 1999. I created an account nearly five years later in January 2004 and have posted a total of 28 entries (average of about once a month) since then. So when you call that "a rabid orgy or (sic) hoorays for every new fad to come down the pike", you prove that you are not Al "No Facts" Gore , you're actually Michael "No Facts and I'm an Ass" Moore.

Halifax at 10:38 PM, Sep 24, 2006
Ah, I now see. Clearly my friends are intent on disproving my central contention, that the octoblog is a fine venue for intelligent discourse. Now if we could all stop behaving like five-year olds for a moment (myself included), we could perhaps get to the central point. I have no desire to demonize LJ; you will notice that I have been using it myself. Without worrying (as ET inexplicably is) about the ratio of octoblog to LJ posts or something, we can, I think, see that there are times when one has something one wishes to post on the internets and is faced with a choice: do I post this on LJ or on the octoblog? Even a cursory examination of old octoblog posts, conducted by a monkey, would reveal that they are full of surveys and interesting links, fare now conducted on LJ; similarly, even a cursory examination of recent LJ posts can turn up several topics that would make fine subjects for serious discussion. What goes where and why? Is there a use for both fora or just one? Should the octoblog be abandoned? (Remember there is a difference between the world of should the world of is.) These are, I think, important issues we could discuss. I would like to see LJ defended, especially against the accusation that it is unsuitable for serious discussions. I would prefer if we could do this while behaving ourselves, but perhaps that is asking too much.

thecomicman at 11:02 PM, Sep 24, 2006
"I would prefer if we could do this while behaving ourselves, but perhaps that is asking too much." dude, this is the internets, not a truck. you can't just dump behaving into it. also, and more importantly, you started it.

ET at 12:48 AM, Sep 25, 2006
Hal sez: "Clearly my friends are intent on disproving my central contention, that the octoblog is a fine venue for intelligent discourse." I haven't argued against that point even once. I don't have a problem with the OctoBlog and I disliked LJ for years and only started actively using it because of the Friends page and security features. There is no reason on Earth why LJ couldn't be a forum for these serious discussions you're so hung up on. There is nothing inherent to LJ as a tool that prevents them. You can publish a post. People can comment on said post. The comments can even branch off other comments so that it's obvious if one were to address a specific comment rather than the discussion as a whole. In some ways, LJ may be an even better forum for discussion. I said in my very first response that if there is a lack of the erudite debate you want, it is solely the fault of the octopuses. If someone said that modern movies aren't as good as movies from the 80s, and blamed that on the fact that movies are now released on DVDs rather than VHS tapes, it would be clear that the argument is ridiculous. (This metaphor is so awesome because DVD extras like commentaries, documentaries, cut scenes, etc. would be like the extra features on LJ.) If movies/blog posts suck, it is because you don't like what the movie makers/octopuses have released - it's clearly absurd to blame the format. Hal sez: "Without worrying (as ET inexplicably is) about the ratio of octoblog to LJ posts or something" Hal also sez: 1) "Have we, then, surrendered (yet again, I might add) meaningful content for a shiny set of bells and whistles?" 2) "It is irrefutable that LJ has sapped content from the octoblog; a scan of friends' LJ posts will find a host of topics that could well have been octoblog topics, but were not." 3) "Look at some of your favorite octothreads of yore and consider what percentage of the comments could have been made on LJ." You keep contending that people have stopped posting on OctoBlog and stopped having serious debate as a direct result of LJ. I've been arguing that you are incorrect and suggested a reasonable means by which you could support your claims in a factual and indisputable way rather than the cursory manner in which you've been "proving" your theory. You also keep ignoring the fact that people had personal blogs that existed concurrently with OctoBlog back in the Old Days and that LJ is just the continuation of those same blogs. If they didn't sap content from the OctoBlog then, why are you blaming LJ now?

Halifax at 9:07 AM, Sep 25, 2006
Well, DVDs vs. VHS tapes is not an apposite metaphor, because these are secondary media (although it's possible for secondary media to become important enough economically to affect primary content, that is, I think, too complex to get into here); film vs. digital projection would work, as would (more classically) film vs. TV. And it certainly is not ridiculous to say that even if the medium is not the message, then the medium affects the message. Compare the kind of letters people wrote when they actually wrote real letters with the kind of letters people write by email. Even limiting ourselves to considerations of private correspondence, I don't think it's controversial to say that there is an appreciable difference in the kinds of messages send snail mail and email (we can debate the point if anyone finds it controversial) and that the difference was created by the differences in the two methods of communication. The difference between LJ and the octoblog is slighter, but it is still present, and it is simply naive to presume that no difference in tone and matter of conversation should arise from these differences. ET provides three quotes from my previous comments that are apparently designed to show that I am arguing that LJ slew octoblog. I think only one of these comments actually implies this, and I apologize for the poor word choice. Obviously a great many factors, including spam, burnout, and (as Mags points out) social fragmentation, have brought the octoblog low. Now, it is probably possible to have serious, prolonged discussions (SPD) through any medium, but certain media, such as semaphore, discourage it. ("It's possible to play a simulationist game with a gamist system, but the game discourages it"?perhaps I should add this in case anyone is a fan of the Forge and not Marshall McLuhan.) LJ, I would contend, discourages it. We have had, in the past, SPD on the octoblog in which different people presented thoughtful responses to a topic, and a good discussion, with some witty remarks but also some real content, was the result (if anyone does not think this is the case, we can look for examples); although these discussions were due of course to the erudition and eloquence of the Octopuses, the format either encouraged or at the very least did not discourage SPD. I like SPD and would like to maintain the possibility of SPD in the future. Pace the comments above, LJ is, obviously, different from personal blogs, just as personal blogs differ from the octoblog. (If LJ did not differ from personal blogs, LJ would not be as popular as it is.) There are I think, several ways in which this is true (there would have to be several ways, since LJ is both a blog distribution system and a blog proper), but perhaps most important is that LJ offers one-stop-shopping; its like an RSS feed that only customizable to a certain extent. And there are several factors of LJ, as I have at least implied before, that discourage SPD. One is that old posts are driven off the friends page, thereby becoming out of sight, out of mind. (For all I know, there are ways of configuring LJ to obviate the problem.) There are also subtler factors, which will probably be more controversial, and doubtless many people will claim these have no effect on any discussion, but I would say are nevertheless important; these include 1. being offered the possibility of a lot of fun 'n' distracting things, such as dancing pictures and current mood icons; 2. being part of a larger community of people (LJ users en masse) who are not interested in SPD and do not use LJ for this purpose, thereby presenting peer pressure against SPD; 3. having the one-stop-shopping format of LJ present subjects for SPD in between bits of personal fluff or subjects for light-hearted banter. Now, any one of these factors exists to a greater or lesser extent in any online forum, but their prevalence on LJ is, I think, detrimental to SPD. This does not mean LJ is bad. It does mean that it's not good for some things that the octoblog was good for, and the one-stop-shopping aspect of it, which, as one-stop-shopping always does, discourages going to other stores may mean that SPD does not have a chance to exist anymore. Certainly if one has a subject that may or may not engender SPD, where one posts it will have an effect on the discussion. Perhaps I am wrong and LJ is a fine format for SPD. Perhaps SPD is bogus and for losers. Perhaps SPD was doomed anyway, and has been slowly on the way out since 1936. Perhaps the octoblog had outlived its usefulness before LJ, and perhaps LJ, for better or for worse, resuscitated the obsolescent practice of blogging in general. Is cross-posting gauche (I do not know the etiquette, and was afraid, the first time and every time thereafter that I cross-posted, that someone would yell at me; but then again, I am always afraid that someone will yell at me)? TCM's comments simply make no sense, and I assume they are intended to prove to the world that may have forgotten that he can act rude and swear a lot even of he doesn't understand the discussion at hand. "Don't play the annoying fool" is a nice touch of dramatic irony, though, for which I commend him.

Maggie at 9:59 AM, Sep 25, 2006
"Well, that's two benighted souls who have managed to convince themselves that anything less than a rabid orgy or hoorays for every new fad to come down the pike must be a symptom of mental problems. Although at least Mags wasn't hammered when she commented." Uhm, what the heck, Hal? I am assuming you're including me as one of these "two benighted souls", since my posts and ET's posts are the only ones before this comment, but I'm a little confused. It feels like you're projecting or something - especially that nowhere did I say "LJ is great, zomg, lololo!!11" nor did I say "Down with communist Octoblog n00bs!". What the first paragraph of my original reply was meant to do was to gently make fun of you for making a big deal out of having a blog. I know you've been opposed to having a blog for a long time - the OctoBlog was your blog to an extent, but because it was "shared", you never had to take the responsibility of it being "your" blog. Responsibility is difficult, I understand. I really think that this entire discussion is a result of you not really wanting to accept the fact that you're now "one of those people who have a LiveJournal" or better yet, "one of those people who blog". Having the OctoBlog only made you just "one of those people who contribute to a message board". You go to extremes to exist outside the society. (This last sentence will result in you saying that there's no such thing as society and it's just a TV-created collection of trends and stupidity or something along those lines.) Not "fitting in" has become your schtick, and while this may work for you, there's no reason you should put down legitimate channels of expression and keeping in touch with friends (such as LiveJournal). You say, or at least imply, that LJ is worse than the OctoBlog because it does not create an environment for lengthy debates. It's like comparing a mailing list to a message board. LJ is the mailing list - you get the most recent posts. You may miss out on some things if you haven't been there from the beginning and have no access to the archives. But the story develops over time, not necessarily in one thread. A message board has everything on one page that you can just scroll. Maybe, just maybe, you're simply so lazy that your opposition to LJ is simply that you don't feel like clicking the "previous posts" link? I know I am. But eventually, someone will bring up or link to a post from the past in a new post, which we can all read and discuss further. To summarize: 1. LiveJournal is a collection of blogs, a community (yes, which means oppression - you're not allowed to read my posts if you're not my "friend"). 2. The OctoBlog is a fancy message board. It is really only put in the category of "blogs" becuase we're using MovableType as the backend which is typicall used for blogs. Other than that, it acts as a regular forum. 3. Don't put words in my mouth. 4. I resent your constant avoiding to acknowledge your feelings and pretending like your argument is so freakin' pristine and objective. Why don't you simply say you like the OctoBlog better than LiveJournal? Starting everything you say with what amounts to "It has been empirically proven that [insert your opinion here]" is really pretentious, and frankly, kind of jerky. 5. I'm also sick of you putting TCM down all the time only becuase he curses. He does have some valid points sometimes, and even if he doesn't, you could at least put some effort into disproving his points rather than saying "make no sense". They make no sense to you and I think that's becuase (see #4).

rIck at 10:05 AM, Sep 25, 2006
omgz get rid of your livejournal y dont u get a xanga with me? it'll be teh awesome we can post quiz results, have polls on ur favorite lotr characters, take part in memes and post poems about how we feel sad n stuff it'll be awesome current music:Mates of State Mood:^_^*

Halifax at 11:13 AM, Sep 25, 2006
Not only was I not trying to pick a fight with Maggie, I was trying not to pick a fight with Maggie. However... 4. Obviously I like the octoblog better than LJ. I was trying to explain why I like the octoblog better than LJ. What is it you wish I had said? Perhaps you would not "resent" a post like: "hmmmm i dunno guess i like octoblogs lol :D ttfn." If so, enjoy LJ. Look, for fear of violating your summary point #3, the real bone of contention here, and, I think the reason we have collapsed so quickly into abuse, is that you, O Maggie, as well, in this thread, as TCM & ET, are dead set on imputing emotional reasons for my arguments. ET: "The real knee-jerk reaction here is from your hatred of new things." Mags: "It is not even a big change...You don't have to fear it...Get over it." TCM: "now you...are feeling strange abandonment issues" Since my original post was not overtly a cry for psychoanalysis but, was supposed to be, in brief, something along the lines of: "I think the octoblog is more conducive to discussion than LJ; what do we think about this?", the insistence that any serious discussion of what I wrote be rejected in favor of the tired bromide that Hal hates all new things is frustrating. The problem, I submit is not that I am denying my "feelings"; the problem is that you have chosen, once again, to assign feelings to me. I: I am opposed to genocide in Rwanda. Others: You just hate everything modern! For the record: a brief journal of my emotions: I *like* the octoblog better than LJ, but I *like* LJ fine, too. I *lament* the loss of SPD in society in general, and therefore I am *sad* to see a forum for SPD go the way of the dodo. I *resent* having people pretend that my opinions are purely the result of a mental illness, but I am *amused* by comments that refer to my gluing kittens in girls' mouths, and then I am *aroused* by same. I *dislike* having people tell me to "get over it." I kind of have to *go to the bathroom*. Is this clearer? 5. Starting a comment with "dude, you're retarded" and ending it with "you know damn fucking well" is behavior outside the bounds of civil discourse; if TCM wants to be taken seriously, he can post in a way that merits it. However, since he has in the past said that he delights in dragging serious discussions down with his antics, I assume my response was what he was looking for.

Maggie at 12:12 PM, Sep 25, 2006
The weird thing is that I wasn't trying to start a fight either, but my newsgroup-like troll tendencies are giving in. I think we should abandon all methods of Internet discourse altogether and have this discussion in person, say Thursday or Sunday (the latter if Battle Royale is still on).

Halifax at 1:26 PM, Sep 25, 2006
Deal. You should come on Thursday, I have something to give you. Wait...Does this mean I can't comment on your LJ?

Maggie at 2:57 PM, Sep 25, 2006
I will be late, but I will be there. I have something to give you, too. You can post on my LJ, but I'm gonna screen comments from you, LOLLERSK8S!!1

Agnieszka at 5:45 PM, Sep 25, 2006
I no longer post new messages to the octoblog because I have not been able to retrieve my password despite various attempts by both me and Sam. I could have tried harder. But after half a dozen attempts I got too frustrated too care. Spam and stalkers also deter me, and are a bit reason why I like LJ. LJ has all the drawbacks you mention. Octoblog, like old usenet of yore, is more topic centered whereas LJ is personality and newness centered. That's pretty clearly a disatvantage. It is possible to have a deep conversation on LJ, and it is possible to refuse to use it as a verb, but there is a tendency towards the formation of bands of sycopanths around people with strong personalities instead of topic-centered message boards. It is sad, but stalkers suck more.

Halifax at 1:09 AM, Sep 28, 2006
Well, that was certainly an exciting swan song. Good night, little Octoblog. Pleasant dreams.

Kari at 8:53 PM, Sep 28, 2006
I think that the Octoblog won't really die until it is taken down, since the Schoolyard Games post is showing no signs of stopping. I have had a LJ longer than the Octoblog existed, but the largest factor to not posting here is that I now live in the same country as most of the core people who post here. It is still an interesting forum in which to discuss issues, but doesn't serve the same needs that I had when living abroad. Another reason I haven't posting on the Octoblog as much recently is that although I sometimes have ideas to contribute, as someone who has comparitively limited time online I don't feel as though I can research/organize well enough cite my sources to sufficiently avoid the risk of verbal attacks. The social signals of speaking in meatspace makes the joking nature of insults clear, which is something that emoticons haven't managed to convey. I sincerely hope that the Octoblog or some other forum for group discourse (alternately a LJ community which could serve the same functions) continues, since a personal reading list is enjoyable, but it is way more fun to have them all in one place to compare to each other and over time, and I agree with Halifax that LJ's Friend Page reading isn't particularly conducive to discussions that grow slowly and organically.

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Nobody knows which album will come out first. "We're working on them both simultaneously," Mr. Slasher admits. "Which one is released first will depend on which keyboard solo is harder to improvise." He adds, "But really, if we're lucky they ought to come out at about the same, to undercut the frustration and disappointment of fans who find themselves listing to covers of songs they had never heard in the first place, and aren't very 'funny.'"

The titles of the two albums are "Richer Than Jesus" and "Cover of Darkness." A provisional track listing (N.B.: subject to change!) follows:

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posted by halifax

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posted by halifax

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thecomicman at 3:07 PM, Sep 1, 2006
you read this and you watched Snakes on a Plane, but you won't read Checkmate and Annihilation or watch Superman Returns. what the fuck is wrong with you?

Halifax at 7:49 AM, Sep 6, 2006
NB: I have read both Checkmate & Annihilation. They are, respectively, adequate and bad.

thecomicman at 2:58 PM, Sep 6, 2006
you haven't finished either (both are awesome), and even if we uses your aesthetic scale, neither is anywhere near as bad as this book. yet you finished that book. so, again, what the fuck is wrong with you?

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There will be spoilers, of course.

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posted by halifax

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thecomicman at 7:46 PM, Aug 19, 2006
remember, ladies and gentlemen, Halifax went to go see this (and paid 10.75), but refused to go see Superman Returns.

ET at 2:16 PM, Aug 20, 2006
Although Halifax has some funny scenarios, they've already been trumped by that scene in Anaconda where Jon Voight gets regurgitated by the anaconda, winks at the other people, and swallowed whole again. Still the most awesome over the top snake scene ever.

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Where does a so-called libertarian get off advocating killing people for thier speech?

posted by Kerry D-C

Comments:

Halifax at 1:18 AM, Aug 11, 2006
Is the crazy part labeling all Muslims fanatics or is the crazy part basing foreign policy on a Neal Stephenson novel that isn't Cryptonomicon?

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posted by halifax

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thecomicman at 10:38 PM, Aug 7, 2006
why would i be there? i don't want to watch you make out with your brother. that's gross.

N. at 11:22 PM, Aug 7, 2006
That's like three blocks from where I work, so odds are good that I will be there. Barring disaster or monster strike, that is.

Kerry at 5:47 PM, Aug 8, 2006
I'm in.

Halifax at 1:54 AM, Aug 15, 2006
OK, Josh Ritter ruled, and anyone who didn't go punes. He played all the best songs from his last three albums, and even played Hotel Song from his first album. My only complaint was that it was too freaking loud; apparently they were trying to make it loud enough for people in the back, and I was not in the back. My ears rang for 24 hours afterwards. And then that night he was on Conan.

Kerry at 2:11 PM, Aug 15, 2006
Hal also got his boob signed. It was a little weird.

Halifax at 3:46 PM, Aug 17, 2006
That may have been somone else, and not me. I'm just saying.

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If you haven't seen an inconvenient truth, you should.

I would like to hear Hal and everyone's unusual opinions on this matter, as we are not a group to lead the unexamined life, nor are we a group of individuals who blindly believe mass opinion without further research.

posted by Erin or 'Rin or Erinesque

Comments:

Halifax at 1:48 AM, Aug 2, 2006
Well, Al Gore is an evil man whose wife hates Dungeons and Dragons, a game she has never played. And this is from the imdb trivia for An Inconvenient Truth: "The continuous shot of the Ocean Surface to the Ice Shelf is presented to the audience as actual footage of Antarctica, when really it is a CGI shot taken from the opening credits of the movie The Day After Tomorrow"--not exactly a model of veracity. Furthermore, not only is a hot day not evidence of global warming, a study of a large number of days that shows the earth is getting warmer is (paradoxically) not evidence of global warming. I mean, the globe gets warmer every spring, but that's not what “global warming” means, and isn’t “scairy.” The earth sometimes gets warmer and sometimes gets colder, and it goes around and around, and a warmer earth could be part of this cycle. In the ‘seventies, which I can still remember, scientists were alarming people with prophecies of a coming ice age. The method of our destruction is unimportant, what is important is our faith in our destruction. Walker Percy once wrote that the truly alarming thought is not, “What if the world ends tomorrow?” but rather, “What is the world does not end tomorrow?” Because then what will we do? Global warming’s most important role is to give smug Hollywood types who ride around in private jets and air condition their lawns something to blame the Midwest for. Remember Jennie Garth on Letterman blaming the 2004 tsunami on global warming?* That being said, I think there are pretty good, non-anecdotal reasons to believe in global warming. I believe in it myself. Not that it matters, because long before global warming becomes a real threat we will have nuked ourselves into oblivion. “Civilization is a flash of lightning in the long dark night.” In other words, don’t be alarmed, Walker Percy; the world will assuredly end tomorrow. In the coming stone age, a warmer earth could be a boon. * This never actually happened.

Rick at 12:29 PM, Aug 2, 2006
Global warming is bullshit. I don't really know if the planet is getting warmer becauase of people or not, but neither do the people who believe in global warming and advocate policies based on that belief. For most of these people, environmentalism is just a religion and an oppurtunity to show off their good intentions. Most (though not all) scientists believe that the planet is getting warmer and that humans are contributing to that in some way (though they aren't necessarily the sole cause). Most laypeople take it for granted that of course people are responsible for the changes in the temperature, forgetting that the earth's temperature has changed plenty in the past without any help from humans. It should also be remembered that the gain in temperature over the past century hasn't been a steady ascent, but has been fluctuating up and down (and I think it has fluctuated in a way that doesn't really line up with the way global warming models would predict that it would, but I'm not entirely sure) In the seventies people were afraid of global cooling and wanted the government to induce melting in glaciers to help fight it. Nowadays those proposals look pretty foolish. Who's to say that in 20 years proposals to grind industry to a halt and impoverish a large number of people in order to combat global warming won't look equally foolish? The thing to remember about global warming and environmentalism is that for most of mankind's existence, man has changed his envornment in order to convenience himself, he has not treated the environment as an object to be worshipped and modified his life in order to benefit the environment. Even if the environmentalists are correct, we're probably better off having an unhampered economy dealing with a 2 degree temperature increase than we are with a weaker economy trying to cope with 1 degree increase.

Dan at 9:32 PM, Aug 3, 2006
First of all, I saw An Inconvenient Truth, and while he did use shots from "The day after tomorrow, they were all labels as such, and were used in a humorous way to lighten the mood. And they were all clearly labeled as scenes from the movie. Gore also used a clip from Futurama. Maybe his wife hates D&D, but one of his daughters writes for one of your favorite shows Hal. Second, Global warming is true. Or it's new label "Climate change" is true, and I refer you to this link: http://www.senate.gov/~gov_affairs/071801_karl.htm Its the senate testimony of a scientist, Thomas R. Karl (I hadn't heard of him before I read the testimony either) to congress in 2001. I apologize for not finding something more recent. I'll try to find something more current when I have more time. Most of the people are raising the alarm about global warming are not screaming end of the world, which is the point I think people are missing. They're screaming "For the love of God, can we do something about this before its too late!" The point of An Incontinent Truth is not that we're all going to die, its that there's still time left if we start working together on this. I really don't see what's wrong with that. Nor do I agree with the assertion that good environmental policy will damage the economy. I think that's a red herring. Most environmental policy right now is advocating energy conservation, which after an initial investment will save people money, and take a lot of stress of the power grids we've been hearing so much about these last few weeks. Reduce dependency on foreign oil and natural gas. Develop carbon neutral biofuel (which is not yet economical sound, granted) Most of the people (pundits, politicians, think tanks) who use the Economy vs. Environment argument also deny global warming's existence.

Halifax at 1:09 AM, Aug 5, 2006
It's true I'd rather date the Gore daughters than the Bush daughters. However, assuming I could travel back in time, I'd rather date Bush's wife (who is an Ian McEwan fan) than Gore's wife (who worships Satan). And I'm glad to hear that Inconvenient Truth labels its borrowed footage, although you can't blame me for being suspicious, ever since Michael Moore passed off that scare footage from Planet of the Apes as Michigan. As I said, I believe in global warming, or climate change, or rather I believe that the evidence in favor of its existence is strong enough that withholding provisional consent would be perverse. However, Karl's testimony is at best misleading and at worse false, at least insofar as the functioning of the greenhouse effect. I once had a physics major explain to me in great detail and with some degree of tooth-gnashing why one should never say that greenhouse gases "trap" radiation, as Karl likes to. Rather, they radiate heat. There's a simple explanation here. http://www.ems.psu.edu/~fraser/Bad/BadGreenhouse.html I assume Karl is dumbing it down for people in congress, but if you're dealing with people who are dumb perhaps when you say, in italics no less, "It is presently not possible to generally define a safe level of greenhouse gases," you should restate for them what you mentioned a few pages, viz. that there emphatically is a safe level of greenhouse gas, which is not the impression congressmen are going to take away from the paragraph, which ends in doomsday scenarios. Perhaps we should all read Jared Diamond's _Collapse_, a book I cannot recommend as strongly as his _Guns, Germs, and Steel_, but which is nevertheless an effective propaganda book in support of environmental action. I'm not convinced that environmental action would not be bad for the economy, although I suppose it depends on the extent of the action. Diamond is not convinced either, but says that the environment is important enough that we should ignore the economics arrayed against it. Here, perhaps, N.'s head explodes, and I imagine him fulminating, in a reductio-ad-absurdum analogy, "Space travel is so important that we should just ignore the physics arrayed against it." I suppose the question, then, is whether the laws of economics are like the laws of physics, or whether they are as infinitely malleable as the human psyche. But then, one of the great lessons of the Twentieth Century (because the Twentieth Century, unlike most centuries, came with a moral) is that the human psyche is not as malleable as we thought. Apparently most of the action on this topic is taking place in livejournalland, where once again all my friends are revealing that they are secretly more conservative than I am. However, just as I was about to cement my liberal cred with this comment, I cam across this: http://www.junkscience.com/Greenhouse/ which perhaps should make me rethink my global-warming's-a-coming stance. Although it cannot make me rethink my we're-all-doomed stance. Nothing can. "Civilization is a flash of lightning in the long dark night." I will keep saying it until they put it on a T-shirt.

N. at 3:43 PM, Aug 7, 2006
KABOOM Sorry, my head just exploded. To say that "the environment is important enough that we should ignore the economics arrayed against it," is akin to that hoary old chestnut that "xyz must be accomplished at *any cost*!" I believe, personally, history demonstrates that those who utter this sentiment tend to discover that (a) xyz, if accomplished, is not accomplished at *any cost* but at a specific cost, and (b) that cost is far greater than if they had been a bit more rational about it to begin with and thought things through with fewer histrionics. That is to say, I do not believe that economic laws stand 'arrayed against' 'reversing environmental trends' or what have you, provided that governments implement policies which do not attempt to contradict those economic laws. And yes, I believe those laws to be effectively as binding as the laws of physics. Economic policy is not a truck. You can't just dump something on it. I think the difficulty arises, at least in part, when the intentions behind a potential economic solution are given more weight than the consequences. I perceive that for many people the attitude with which a policy is suggested is just as important -- if not more so -- than the real outcome of that possibility. By way of brief example, privatization of otherwise public resources is often cited by economists (both liberal and conservative, I have found) as a way of diminishing resource loss (since someone would be accountable for resource use, and would work to prevent his own property from being befouled). This tactic tends to be dismissed by those on the left, sometimes even by those who agree that it would help the issue of resource depletion, because it is motivated by a desire for profit, and those who are wealthy enough to afford to buy up and privatize the resource are the only ones who stand to benefit financially from the transaction. The argument runs, simply put, that saving the environment should not be done out of greed, it should be done through a fundamental change of human attitude toward the planet on which we live. Anything short of embracing that ideology doesn't cut it. Thus, really, for these individuals "at any cost" doesn't really mean any cost; it means any cost that doesn't involve Republicans becoming richer. Because that should also be prevented "at any cost." That's all I have to say for the moment, although I realize that this topic requires a much better response from me, and I hope to give it one. Right now, I'm tired from Otakon.

Halifax at 6:45 PM, Aug 7, 2006
Wait...so you're saying economic policy is a series of tubes?

thecomicman at 10:16 PM, Aug 7, 2006
" The point of An Incontinent Truth is not that we're all going to die, its that there's still time left if we start working together on this." you leave my bowel movements out of this. and Noah's right. no way will stupid vegan, birkenstock-wearing, hemp-using, acid-dropping hippies allow the world to be saved if it means Republicans can get rich off of doing just that. stupid hippies.

Erin at 2:47 PM, Aug 8, 2006
N., can you give an actual concrete example of whatevernonsense about "resource loss" and "privatization of otherwise public resources"?

N. at 12:17 PM, Aug 9, 2006
I can, but why doesn't someone else take a crack at formulating a concrete example, 'to demonstrate their understanding of the material.' I'm looking at Rick or tcm here, if either of them is feeling particularly pedagogical. Hint: How does one resolve the Tragedy of the Commons?

Halifax at 9:16 PM, Aug 9, 2006
Wait a minute, N.--that's not your voice, that's Kaplan's voice.

Kerry at 1:15 PM, Aug 14, 2006
As the representative voice of Science here, I would like to point out to all concerned (but especially Dan and Rick) that arguing either pro or con on the "humans cause global warming" issue is not one that can be settled by rhetoric and debate. The scientific answer is that we have no idea how the planetary temperature is affected by any human activity short of nuclear winter-style scenarios. Short term weather prediciton with tons of data and a small geographic area is still difficult to do well, and long-term effects of burning coal and oil are well beyond our predictive capabilities. Most of the scientists you read talking about dire consequences of fossil-fuel use are relying on computer models that need to be parameterized so extensively that what you get out depends on the researcher's assumptions more than the actual workings of the planet. The rational response to global warming scare talk is sit back and wait for more data and better models with real predictive power. Taking action such as limiting fuel use etc is a shot in the dark, and is more likely to cause harm than to do any good.

Agnieszka at 2:42 PM, Aug 14, 2006
It looks like Two out of Two men of science known personally to me agree on this subject. The Scientists and Experts whose hobby is freaking out about Global Climate Change stand to lose a lot of governmetn funding for their research if there is nothing to freak out about, so naturally they will choose computer models that justify freaking out (and getting to keep their jobs as Scientists and Exprets)

N. at 5:27 PM, Aug 14, 2006
Alas, there is always something to freak out about. At least, there always has been before. And now, on top of everything else, we have to worry about fan death. Sheesh! Seriously though, the end is near.

Halifax at 1:49 AM, Aug 15, 2006
Near? The end came and went. Dan, I'm starting to list into the "global warming is banana oil" camp. Please lead me back to the light with some SCIENCE.

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he hasn't appeared yet (as far as i can tell), but as i plan to watch this show, i'll let you know when he has.

posted by thecomicman

Comments:

thecomicman at 6:46 PM, Jul 6, 2006
of possible interest, "Master of Champions is based on the format World Records by NTV from Japan."

thecomicman at 9:29 PM, Jul 6, 2006
okay, that was it. he appeared on tonight's show with two other kids on his team. he beat the other team of three yo-yoers, but lost to some dude who throws cards. next week, there'll be competing Rube-Goldberg devices, but the this show is super obnoxious. one has to watch on mute and fast-forward through the junk that isn't actually cool, crazy shit.

Halifax at 4:40 AM, Jul 7, 2006
The same mute/fast forward principle also applies to: 1. The Olympics 2. That's Incredible / Guinness World Records / etc. 3. real life, esp. grades 6-11

erin at 12:47 AM, Jul 10, 2006
I thought you meant Dr. Who for a minute there.

erin at 12:48 AM, Jul 10, 2006
I thought you meant Dr. Who for a minute there.

mwsijlvv at 3:39 AM, Jan 20, 2007
[URL=http://zykvlvrp.com]wgbavtdl[/URL] xhhiyjbg uljkbzkw http://osjanfsj.com tdmuhrfd papwptzd

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What I find interesting about this subgenre is how humans deal (or not) with the end of civilization. Within this subgenre, most recently I read Oryx and Crake by Margaret Atwood and it was quite excellent.

See also the Wikipedia entry on genres, subcategories and related topics to science fiction.

Respond by listing your favorite postapocalyptic science fiction. Novels, films, short stories, etc. are ok.

posted by maggie

Comments:

Jay at 11:23 PM, Jun 27, 2006
The Road to Surfdome

Halifax at 2:03 AM, Aug 2, 2006
I don’t know why I didn’t respond to this before; maybe because, Mags, N., and I made our top 5 lists at Lunacon. Anyway, post-Apocalyptic fiction for me begins, and nearly ends, with John Christopher. No Blade of Grass is the most nihilistic, Pendulum is the most grueling, and A Wrinkle in the Skin is no walk in the park, either. What destroys civilization in John Christopher books? Books about civilization just getting destroyed: Empty World: Disease No Blade of Grass: Famine The Long Winter: Ice age Wrinkle in the Skin: Earthquake When the Tripods Came: Aliens Pendulum: Biker gangs Books in which the apocalypse happened a long time ago: Wild Jack: Nukes Sword of the Spirits: Volcanic eruptions Tripod Trilogy: The aliens from When the Tripods Came A Dusk of Demons: I don’t even remember By the way, John Christopher also invented cyberpunk. I’m just saying.

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posted by Kerry D-C

Comments:

Halifax at 2:27 AM, Jun 17, 2006
I, for one, think this is a stellar idea. I'm sure there will be some killjoys who don't want to play, but remember that Evelake has some things that some people are going to need, so it's not like everyone can just ignore old E and hope he leaves us alone. SOMETHING MUST BE DONE. ET has suggested that before we commit characters we actually care about, we might want to test whether we can play nice together by engaging in the high-powered battle I have been threatening to run for 8 years. I think that might be a little nuts, as the point of that little scenario is to fight it out and exterminate the other fellow, hardly condusive to future party harmony. But who knows? Maybe it's the catharsis we need

Maggie at 2:35 PM, Jun 27, 2006
I'm down for a one Saturday "see if we won't murder each other in real life" try-out event! And congrats on the preggers! Do you know if it's a boy or a girl yet?

ET at 4:22 PM, Jun 27, 2006
It's in the first sentence...

Kerry at 5:01 PM, Jun 27, 2006
So, who is in? I've got Maggie, so I guess Gur will show up. Evonne? Comicman? Sam? N et al? I doubt Will even reads this anymore, so maybe Maggie can give me his email.

Maggie at 5:07 PM, Jun 27, 2006
Heh, Evo - I totally didn't notice. Kerry, not just Gur will show up. Gur and HER GUILD of human-animal hybrid thieves are gonna show up. It will be awesome. Will's e-mail is first initial last name at his current college.

at 1:41 AM, Jun 28, 2006
I'm for it, sept or oct seem like good I might acutally be able to make it. if nothing else goes wrong on the medical front (which is seeming like an increasingly bigger if these days)

thecomicman at 1:45 AM, Jun 28, 2006
i'm down for the "let's see if we can keep from killing each other" bit, but it'd have to be a Sunday, 'cause of the working that i do on Saturdays.

ET at 11:16 AM, Jun 28, 2006
I'm in for the Battle Royale and won't commit further until I see how that goes. Either day of the weekend is fine by me.

Kerry at 2:14 PM, Jun 28, 2006
We can do battle royale soon, since that is not worth getting people who don't usually play or don't live in the area up for. Battle royale also needs two teams or around four-seven people each. I propose the Queens group and the Brooklyn group as the team nuclei, since my players are gone for the summer. That makes one team the Brooklynites + whoever they want vs. Evonne, Adan, thier new guys, Me, and maybe Thadeous from my party. KL and Mister P might be encouraged to join as well should we need more folks. As for day, I am all for the soonest Sunday everyone is free. How about July 16?

Kerry at 3:23 AM, Jun 29, 2006
8 characters on a team, though one person can play more than one character if we get desparate.

Kerry at 3:52 AM, Jun 29, 2006
In fact, after looking over one of the teams, I would say that five people is a good number for a team, so that the folks whose characters die in the first round have someone to play in the second and third rounds. If this goes for more than three rounds I will be shocked.

ET at 5:21 PM, Jun 29, 2006
July 16th is no good since that's Queens party's next scheduled session and I care about that more than I do about the Battle Royale. Also, no one from Brooklyn has even chimed in yet and this isn't going to be something you can bum rush everyone into playing along with. You get too pushy and the Battle Royale's gonna be you, Hal & the crickets.

Kerry at 6:01 PM, Jul 1, 2006
ET- I'm not trying to "bum rush" anyone. If July 16 is no good, fine. I just wanted to throw out a date to get things started. I don't know your gaming schedule, and I think it is totally reasonable that you would rather play your own session. That is why I (and probably the Brooklyn folks as well) care more about doing the Evelake thing, but you want to do this first. I know there is no input from Brooklyn, but I guess they may not read this page, or even be interested in the big battle. I kind of have a time limit for how long I will be able to do either one, since I think post-baby I will have my hands very very full. So, if you can, please help out by saying when you are available, and maybe even ask the Brooklyn folk (since it is rather apparent that they aren't interested in having a civil conversation with me).

Halifax at 1:45 AM, Jul 3, 2006
Ladies! Ladies! Let's try to behave like mollusks here. Anyway, Battle Royale should be fun. I have had some tentative expressions of interest from a diverse group of people, and I just about everybody is welcome. I'll start dissemenating pregenerated characters soon. Uh...please bear in mind that these characters get away with stuff that characters in my normal game would never get away with. So they have, like, infravision and stuff. If you have any plans for funky spell use (for example), let me know ahead of time so I can adjudicate these things in advance. In the course of the game, to keep things running smoothly, any rules decisions that are not clear to me will be decided by a toss of the dice. Make sure to craft some clever plans. I bet the combat will last at least five rounds.

N. at 2:51 PM, Jul 3, 2006
I hadn't weighed in yet because I was on the fence and still thinking about it. After some requisite arm twisting, Hal managed to win me over for the Battle Royale (the fact that Hal generated the two high-level parties to be used for this purpose clear back in high school may have been what finally sold me). I do not speak for the whole of Brooklyn, but I imagine that some, if not all, of the Danger Gang might be similarly inclined. As far as the Rumble in Enrobai is concerned, there is no question in my mind that we must eventually do this thing, yea, even as a team, for I have no doubt that Lord Evelake has taken enormous care to secret the magics he has stolen within a dungeon so secure that only a superposse of adventurers could hope to crack it. What I am not so certain of is why our characters, scattered far and wide across thousands of miles of terrain as they are, would suddenly all decide that, yes, they must do this thing right now, because KDC calls for it, drop what they're doing, throw caution to the wind, and approach those harrowing gates of Lord Evelake's demesne. I can foresee ways in which our hand could be forced to do such a thing, and while I would not be happy about it, I would surely throw in, because it is a thing which must be done, and done as a team. Given the choice, however, I would much rather make the appointed rendezvous in Chrysopolis (that great Golden City by the Bosporous), compare notes, figure out what's what, and /then/ strike out. As Queens should now be aware, and Hoboken might well suspect, a certain unpopular elf currently labors to plan IkuluCon '88: World Octopus Summit (with guests from all over, friends old and new) which I had thought would be the site of the Second All-Party Mixer. Surely this would allow for the massive shuffling of equipment and information required to undertake so lofty an endeavor as hacking Evelake's estate. Of course, the list of invitees is long and geographically varied, and the 988 mail system is somewhat lacking. So, yes, we are talking about some undetermined time in the future. But I didn't feel there was any rush to schedule the next All-Party Blow Out. Better each party direct its attention to their present missions and return on their own timetable, rather than suddenly drop everything and leave. However, if others besides KDC are anxious to embark on this fools errand and wish to sound the clarion call (and there is some explanation as to why we have all spontaneously decided that we must immediately do this thing, (that at least makes an attempt to satisfy my simulationist predilections), I will, reluctantly, answer it. The rest of Brooklyn doesn't know from Evelake, and bears no grudge against him except by proxy. As a result, I don't know how they would feel about taking part in this action. I would wager, though, that at least some of them would be amenable. If the price was right. Regardless, the quest must continue.

Kerry at 4:43 PM, Jul 3, 2006
Battle Royale has a quest wiki page now, so we can hash it out there.

Halifax at 1:35 AM, Jul 4, 2006
For the record, it was not high school but college. In high school I was sill making 12th-level parties fight each other. The fact that it was some time ago, not long after I had played characters named Fist of Gosh and Princess Five Flavors, may help explain the ridiculous character names

Agnieszka at 1:40 PM, Jul 6, 2006
Crazy as it is I might make a trip to the East just to play a giant d&d game. Not the battle royale though. Also you might be interested to know that while visiting my parents for July 4th I retrieved one of my d&d notebooks. It's notebook #2, not #1, so I'm not sure that it contains anything that isn't in the Chronicles already. While Heloise has not recieved any mail asking for her chronicles she has of course been working on them in between saying the rosary and embroidering altar cloths. If and when Heloise gets a letter I plan on photocopying the contents of the notebook and mailing it to Hal who can make sure it undergoes realistic weathering (to get rid of non-character asides and game mechanics). Deciphering my penmeship will be just part of the fun. I guess I could also copy it over by hand if I feel crazy.

Agnieszka at 1:41 PM, Jul 6, 2006
Another crazy option is doing video iChat. That might work ok.

N. at 6:27 PM, Jul 6, 2006
We have tinker gnomes working day and night to make long-distance gameplay possible. Right now, it seems as though it will take the form of a delicious cocktail consisting of IM, Skype and a free Java app called Gametable which was designed for just such a purpose. As for Heloise's mail, perhaps it was borne forth by some tardy cripple and he has yet to arrive. Perhaps it is stuck in a bush somewhere in the Frankish lands. Perhaps it hasn't even been dispatched. But patience good nun; for it is a long way to Scotland from Byzantium, and the roads are not just winding, dark and overgrown; they are soaked in human blood.

Halifax at 4:43 AM, Jul 7, 2006
If only someone Heloise knew was heading towards Scotland *with the speed of the wolf*...

Agnieszka at 2:12 PM, Jul 12, 2006
While Heloise was never known particularly for her patience, perhaps the years of monastic living have mellowed her temperament. In any case, I await a message.

Kerry at 1:32 PM, Jul 14, 2006
Since it will require quite an effort to physically get everyone in one place at one time I say we do this on a schedule that is entirely independent of meeting in Chrysopolis. Hal says he is willing to make sure there is a magical means to get everyone to Everlake's neighborhood and back to where they came from, thus avoiding the incredibly tedious travel to and from the Crimean or whereever. I think we should take him up on it, since it makes scheduling everything easier and also doesn't disrupt anyone's campaigns.

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posted by rick

Comments:

Halifax at 12:59 PM, May 8, 2006
I have a copy of the book, but no scanner. Does anyone want to "join forces"?

thecomicman at 2:39 PM, May 8, 2006
i think Sam has a scanner, but i don't know if it actually works. also, you can use your new SciFi club friends to get into an NYU computer facility and scan them for you that way.

Rick at 7:26 AM, May 9, 2006
Hal, you're pretty awesome. Let me know how it's going. (I can't imagine Maggie's fortress of computation not having a scanner)

Kari at 7:57 PM, May 12, 2006
I have a scanner if Hal want to come over sometime and use it.

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